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	<title>Comments on: A Breed Apart II</title>
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	<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/breed-apart-ii.html</link>
	<description>A Border Collie Manifesto</description>
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		<title>By: Edward Diggs</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3353</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Diggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 19:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/a-breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3353</guid>
		<description>I appreciate this article about the genetic diversity of border collies.   It is the first article like this that I have found.  It makes me appreciate the American working lines more.  It is too bad that more sampling was not done of border collies in other countries.  I also wonder what five border collies of Australia origin were sampled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate this article about the genetic diversity of border collies.   It is the first article like this that I have found.  It makes me appreciate the American working lines more.  It is too bad that more sampling was not done of border collies in other countries.  I also wonder what five border collies of Australia origin were sampled.</p>
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		<title>By: Grizel</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3352</link>
		<dc:creator>Grizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/a-breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3352</guid>
		<description>Hi, Christopher:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Sorry for the long delay in my response. I am seeing a 13-year-old BC through a critical (and probably terminal) illness, and I seem to be going from one emergency to another. Looking at your flickr page was a welcome break. What lovely dogs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In terms of my next dog, I think I have to decide what I want to do. Having been in dogs for quite some time, I am in constant contact with people who would like me to do what they want to do. Since most of the people I know have some limit on the number of dogs they can have, this means I am surrounded by pent-up desire. This is exacerbated by the fact that as a non-breeder and extremely unthreatening competitor, I am quite comfortable moving between show, sports and working worlds. So far, the following possibilities have presented themselves:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;• The 13-year-old’s show breeder is thrilled with all the herding titles I put on a dog of her breeding and would like me to do it with another. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;• My herding instructor recently purchased a puppy out of a wonderful trial dog, who is now on the market. She thinks I should buy him. We could learn a lot about handling those naturally wide-running dogs that Julie Simpson breeds. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;• Another friend sold a young dog to Alaisdair. He is doing amazing things with her (she is learning to shed before age 2). This friend has watched me work for years and knows we would be a perfect team. I should buy her.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;• Another friend (an agility instructor) is breeding a wonderful dog out of calm, sensible trial lines; this dog carries her serene athleticism between herding and agility. As you pointed out; knowing the parents is important. I know her parents and siblings; all are wonderful dogs with no health problems and marvelous temperaments. I should get a puppy out of her.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;• Another friend thinks I should simply audit a bunch of clinics, making sure a crate is in the back of my car, just in case.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;• Yet another friend believes I should try a Chinook. I could try sledding.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It’s easy to be blinded by the fun that all these possibilities offer and not consider the work that would go into making the dreams they offer a reality. From a practical standpoint, I need to find a dog that would be comfortable spending most of its time in the suburbs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Since you have mentioned that you enjoy debate, I will state upfront that I have found dogs from conformation, sports and working backgrounds to be very, very different creatures. I am not opposed to these different worlds existing, but I cannot imagine the results if they were coalesced. The breeders want very different things. If the genetics need to be extended, it would make more sense to me to cross breed lines – I think everyone would be happier with the results.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The exception to this is sports breeding, where many of the lines seem to be fairly new. (I have looked high and low for dogs from some of the old obedience lines in my area, and haven’t been able to locate any.) I have met some breeders who are blending conformation lines with herding lines (usually from dogs proved in agility, not herding). These dogs are wonderful, appealing animals, and I certainly have not ruled them out. However, they do work differently than dogs bred especially for herding, and I’m not sure it would be fair to go down that road with one if serious herding is in the picture. On the other hand, as you pointed out, herding is time-consuming and expensive. Perhaps I should put it on the back-burner until I retire. In that case, a dog bred by a fellow suburbanite who understands dog sports might be fun.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;And don’t even get me started on rescue, another dream…&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thanks so much for listening! You might be able to see why I like your blog. I might not agree with you on everything but it’s providing a different way of thinking about my most interesting problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Christopher:</p>
<p>Sorry for the long delay in my response. I am seeing a 13-year-old BC through a critical (and probably terminal) illness, and I seem to be going from one emergency to another. Looking at your flickr page was a welcome break. What lovely dogs.</p>
<p>In terms of my next dog, I think I have to decide what I want to do. Having been in dogs for quite some time, I am in constant contact with people who would like me to do what they want to do. Since most of the people I know have some limit on the number of dogs they can have, this means I am surrounded by pent-up desire. This is exacerbated by the fact that as a non-breeder and extremely unthreatening competitor, I am quite comfortable moving between show, sports and working worlds. So far, the following possibilities have presented themselves:</p>
<p>• The 13-year-old’s show breeder is thrilled with all the herding titles I put on a dog of her breeding and would like me to do it with another. </p>
<p>• My herding instructor recently purchased a puppy out of a wonderful trial dog, who is now on the market. She thinks I should buy him. We could learn a lot about handling those naturally wide-running dogs that Julie Simpson breeds. </p>
<p>• Another friend sold a young dog to Alaisdair. He is doing amazing things with her (she is learning to shed before age 2). This friend has watched me work for years and knows we would be a perfect team. I should buy her.</p>
<p>• Another friend (an agility instructor) is breeding a wonderful dog out of calm, sensible trial lines; this dog carries her serene athleticism between herding and agility. As you pointed out; knowing the parents is important. I know her parents and siblings; all are wonderful dogs with no health problems and marvelous temperaments. I should get a puppy out of her.</p>
<p>• Another friend thinks I should simply audit a bunch of clinics, making sure a crate is in the back of my car, just in case.</p>
<p>• Yet another friend believes I should try a Chinook. I could try sledding.</p>
<p>It’s easy to be blinded by the fun that all these possibilities offer and not consider the work that would go into making the dreams they offer a reality. From a practical standpoint, I need to find a dog that would be comfortable spending most of its time in the suburbs.</p>
<p>Since you have mentioned that you enjoy debate, I will state upfront that I have found dogs from conformation, sports and working backgrounds to be very, very different creatures. I am not opposed to these different worlds existing, but I cannot imagine the results if they were coalesced. The breeders want very different things. If the genetics need to be extended, it would make more sense to me to cross breed lines – I think everyone would be happier with the results.</p>
<p>The exception to this is sports breeding, where many of the lines seem to be fairly new. (I have looked high and low for dogs from some of the old obedience lines in my area, and haven’t been able to locate any.) I have met some breeders who are blending conformation lines with herding lines (usually from dogs proved in agility, not herding). These dogs are wonderful, appealing animals, and I certainly have not ruled them out. However, they do work differently than dogs bred especially for herding, and I’m not sure it would be fair to go down that road with one if serious herding is in the picture. On the other hand, as you pointed out, herding is time-consuming and expensive. Perhaps I should put it on the back-burner until I retire. In that case, a dog bred by a fellow suburbanite who understands dog sports might be fun.</p>
<p>And don’t even get me started on rescue, another dream…</p>
<p>Thanks so much for listening! You might be able to see why I like your blog. I might not agree with you on everything but it’s providing a different way of thinking about my most interesting problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3351</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/a-breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3351</guid>
		<description>Greetings Grizel, &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thanks for leaving a comment, it&#039;s like a click and a treat and a pat on the head. :c)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m thrilled that you&#039;ve read enough of my posts to let them sink in and considered my pitch. Unlike many, I&#039;m not suggesting any one philosophy at the expense and exclusion of others, rather an appreciation that the largest factions out there are not the only game in town and that in some cases they are naively damaging the breed they care so much about.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt; My involvement in herding is as recreation. I&#039;m one of the weekend warrior types who look at it as a great way to connect with your dog and get out of the city for some fun. The dogs are coming along nicely in their training, and I&#039;m coming along. My sheep sense is still pretty poor.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I attend sheep trials on occasion to glean wisdom from the handlers and get a better impression of the community and the sport (not many agree with me that it is a sport... they think of it as a higher calling, but I think that&#039;s a little self important).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My dogs are very competitive in Frisbee and Agility (and we work in flyball when we can too) so my goals with herding aren&#039;t that competitive. Herding is easily the most expensive of the lot, the least convenient geographically, and has the longest overhead commitment before you can really compete.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If you take a look at:&lt;br/&gt;http://www.flickr.com/photos/21665467@N04/&lt;br/&gt;And go to the &quot;Dublin and Celeste&quot; gallery on the right, you can see a few photos of my two oldest dogs training on sheep in some of the smaller enclosures. I haven&#039;t snapped any shots since we&#039;ve graduated to the larger fields since I&#039;m in &quot;man in the arena&quot; compared to most of the shots which are of my trainer (who competed at the International in Wales this year) showing me and the dogs how it is done.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My advice on puppy buying is to go for personality and temperament above all. Breeding philosophies are nice, but you have to live with the dog and the pedigree means nothing if the dog isn&#039;t a good fit or a pleasure to live with. I&#039;ve met a lot of breeders who breed for qualities other than temperament, and for the most part I don&#039;t enjoy being with their dogs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Hopefully you can find a breeder who lets you meet the parents and see them at work and at being pets (i.e. observe long enough for the excitement of a guest to ware off... most BCs perform for guests and you don&#039;t get a real sense of them until they calm down). And I&#039;d suggest interviewing the breeder about the differences between the puppies. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I bred my first litter this last year and the puppies were very varied in personality, and as such I homed them in very different homes, from a working Ranch in WY to a retiree in Monterey CA. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Instead of just posting pictures, I wrote up the personalities of the puppies and the right kinds of owners seemed to find the best fit for them and I verified that by interviewing them pretty extensively.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Hope this helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings Grizel, </p>
<p>Thanks for leaving a comment, it&#8217;s like a click and a treat and a pat on the head. :c)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m thrilled that you&#8217;ve read enough of my posts to let them sink in and considered my pitch. Unlike many, I&#8217;m not suggesting any one philosophy at the expense and exclusion of others, rather an appreciation that the largest factions out there are not the only game in town and that in some cases they are naively damaging the breed they care so much about.</p>
<p> My involvement in herding is as recreation. I&#8217;m one of the weekend warrior types who look at it as a great way to connect with your dog and get out of the city for some fun. The dogs are coming along nicely in their training, and I&#8217;m coming along. My sheep sense is still pretty poor.</p>
<p>I attend sheep trials on occasion to glean wisdom from the handlers and get a better impression of the community and the sport (not many agree with me that it is a sport&#8230; they think of it as a higher calling, but I think that&#8217;s a little self important).</p>
<p>My dogs are very competitive in Frisbee and Agility (and we work in flyball when we can too) so my goals with herding aren&#8217;t that competitive. Herding is easily the most expensive of the lot, the least convenient geographically, and has the longest overhead commitment before you can really compete.</p>
<p>If you take a look at:<br /><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/21665467@N04/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/21665467@N04/</a><br />And go to the &#8220;Dublin and Celeste&#8221; gallery on the right, you can see a few photos of my two oldest dogs training on sheep in some of the smaller enclosures. I haven&#8217;t snapped any shots since we&#8217;ve graduated to the larger fields since I&#8217;m in &#8220;man in the arena&#8221; compared to most of the shots which are of my trainer (who competed at the International in Wales this year) showing me and the dogs how it is done.</p>
<p>My advice on puppy buying is to go for personality and temperament above all. Breeding philosophies are nice, but you have to live with the dog and the pedigree means nothing if the dog isn&#8217;t a good fit or a pleasure to live with. I&#8217;ve met a lot of breeders who breed for qualities other than temperament, and for the most part I don&#8217;t enjoy being with their dogs.</p>
<p>Hopefully you can find a breeder who lets you meet the parents and see them at work and at being pets (i.e. observe long enough for the excitement of a guest to ware off&#8230; most BCs perform for guests and you don&#8217;t get a real sense of them until they calm down). And I&#8217;d suggest interviewing the breeder about the differences between the puppies. </p>
<p>I bred my first litter this last year and the puppies were very varied in personality, and as such I homed them in very different homes, from a working Ranch in WY to a retiree in Monterey CA. </p>
<p>Instead of just posting pictures, I wrote up the personalities of the puppies and the right kinds of owners seemed to find the best fit for them and I verified that by interviewing them pretty extensively.</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Grizel</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3350</link>
		<dc:creator>Grizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/a-breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3350</guid>
		<description>Hi, Christopher:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I wanted to let you know I&#039;ve enjoyed reading your blog. I have two border collies, one an AKC show champion and the other from working lines. Both are getting up there, so I have been contemplating what type of dog I would like next. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;While I can&#039;t say I agree with you on everything, you have made me reconsider some of my options.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve noticed that you frequently comment on herding. What is your  level of involvement with it?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Again, thank you for your thought-provoking blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Christopher:</p>
<p>I wanted to let you know I&#8217;ve enjoyed reading your blog. I have two border collies, one an AKC show champion and the other from working lines. Both are getting up there, so I have been contemplating what type of dog I would like next. </p>
<p>While I can&#8217;t say I agree with you on everything, you have made me reconsider some of my options.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve noticed that you frequently comment on herding. What is your  level of involvement with it?</p>
<p>Again, thank you for your thought-provoking blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Zephyr Crossman</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3349</link>
		<dc:creator>Zephyr Crossman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://astraean.com/borderwars/2008/09/a-breed-apart-ii.html#comment-3349</guid>
		<description>Nice to have you back!  I missed your blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice to have you back!  I missed your blog.</p>
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