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	<title>Comments on: The Mara Mystery</title>
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	<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html</link>
	<description>A Border Collie Manifesto</description>
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		<title>By: MC</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3654</link>
		<dc:creator>MC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Nov 2010 21:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3654</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just following a link from elsewhere, but I enjoy discussing what I see when it comes to coat colors.  

First of all, tan cheek patches on atat tan-pointed dogs are not unusual and can vary in size.  Some, like this rottie, are almost nonexistent: http://www.dogfacts.org/Rottweiler-picture.jpg  Other dogs, like this collie, have extensive tan on the cheek: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images14/collieLUKE012_11a.JPG  Most likely, if Mara or her dam didn&#039;t have such extensive white markings, you would observe black surrounding the tan cheek points like you just barely do on her sire.  

But to muddy the waters a bit, I&#039;ve met my share of sables who also had the same type of masking on their faces that a tri does.  The main difference was the sables&#039; masks didn&#039;t appear solid black like a tri&#039;s does - they were grizzled like the rest of the sable dog.  Often they appear to be patchy spectacles because of the variations in banding on each hair. 

My guess is you have a kk atat dog here rather than a kk ayat, mainly because her darker coloration is smooth, rather than grizzled with tan.  Looking at a bb sable might help illustrate what I&#039;m saying: http://www.specialtyshepherds.com/images/dogs/cedar02.JPG  There is nothing solid about this dog&#039;s coat coloration because he&#039;s sable, not tan pointed. 

Anyway, best wishes and luck with your beautiful border collie.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just following a link from elsewhere, but I enjoy discussing what I see when it comes to coat colors.  </p>
<p>First of all, tan cheek patches on atat tan-pointed dogs are not unusual and can vary in size.  Some, like this rottie, are almost nonexistent: <a href="http://www.dogfacts.org/Rottweiler-picture.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.dogfacts.org/Rottweiler-picture.jpg</a>  Other dogs, like this collie, have extensive tan on the cheek: <a href="http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images14/collieLUKE012_11a.JPG" rel="nofollow">http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images14/collieLUKE012_11a.JPG</a>  Most likely, if Mara or her dam didn&#8217;t have such extensive white markings, you would observe black surrounding the tan cheek points like you just barely do on her sire.  </p>
<p>But to muddy the waters a bit, I&#8217;ve met my share of sables who also had the same type of masking on their faces that a tri does.  The main difference was the sables&#8217; masks didn&#8217;t appear solid black like a tri&#8217;s does &#8211; they were grizzled like the rest of the sable dog.  Often they appear to be patchy spectacles because of the variations in banding on each hair. </p>
<p>My guess is you have a kk atat dog here rather than a kk ayat, mainly because her darker coloration is smooth, rather than grizzled with tan.  Looking at a bb sable might help illustrate what I&#8217;m saying: <a href="http://www.specialtyshepherds.com/images/dogs/cedar02.JPG" rel="nofollow">http://www.specialtyshepherds.com/images/dogs/cedar02.JPG</a>  There is nothing solid about this dog&#8217;s coat coloration because he&#8217;s sable, not tan pointed. </p>
<p>Anyway, best wishes and luck with your beautiful border collie.  <img src='http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Heidi</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3653</link>
		<dc:creator>Heidi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3653</guid>
		<description>I have a pup whose colour I&#039;m trying to identify.  She is a brown and white border collie, but her nose is black and she has black trim on her face and black highlights on her back (with brown freckles on her snout) - absolutely beautiful!  Her siblings were black and white, as was mom and dad - she is a fluke.

Is there any way I could post her photos to get input from the others who watch this site?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a pup whose colour I&#8217;m trying to identify.  She is a brown and white border collie, but her nose is black and she has black trim on her face and black highlights on her back (with brown freckles on her snout) &#8211; absolutely beautiful!  Her siblings were black and white, as was mom and dad &#8211; she is a fluke.</p>
<p>Is there any way I could post her photos to get input from the others who watch this site?</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3652</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3652</guid>
		<description>I think the Aussie on the left is a match for her tri-color son, Zappa.  See him in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r0GHpmKMnY  ... check out 3:30-3:36.  Morgan is ruffling his haunch hair and we were talking about how he shows a pronounced white undercoat like his mother.  The other chocolates do not, their hairs are dark chocolate all the way down to skin.  The black-tri (there is some dilute going on the black here too, my guess is from the merle or sable, not the traditional dilution gene) has this effect too.

In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoXbUmXB2O8  you can see just how much lighter Mara and two of the puppies are compared to the chocolates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Aussie on the left is a match for her tri-color son, Zappa.  See him in this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r0GHpmKMnY" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r0GHpmKMnY</a>  &#8230; check out 3:30-3:36.  Morgan is ruffling his haunch hair and we were talking about how he shows a pronounced white undercoat like his mother.  The other chocolates do not, their hairs are dark chocolate all the way down to skin.  The black-tri (there is some dilute going on the black here too, my guess is from the merle or sable, not the traditional dilution gene) has this effect too.</p>
<p>In this video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoXbUmXB2O8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoXbUmXB2O8</a>  you can see just how much lighter Mara and two of the puppies are compared to the chocolates.</p>
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		<title>By: Peggy Richter</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3651</link>
		<dc:creator>Peggy Richter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3651</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d guess kk ayat M (merle), dd (dilute &quot;blue&quot;), probable EM (Mask), bb (liver) see the Aussie on the left in in this article http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html

She doesn&#039;t quite show the typical bb + dd that one sees in Dobermans, but it&#039;s likely she carries for the dilutes.  I think there are times when a heterozygote who should show the dominant color shows at least some of the recessive characteristics as well - I suppose if one had the money, you could do a DNA check thru one of the various centers that do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d guess kk ayat M (merle), dd (dilute &#8220;blue&#8221;), probable EM (Mask), bb (liver) see the Aussie on the left in in this article <a href="http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html" rel="nofollow">http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html</a></p>
<p>She doesn&#8217;t quite show the typical bb + dd that one sees in Dobermans, but it&#8217;s likely she carries for the dilutes.  I think there are times when a heterozygote who should show the dominant color shows at least some of the recessive characteristics as well &#8211; I suppose if one had the money, you could do a DNA check thru one of the various centers that do that.</p>
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		<title>By: kabbage</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3650</link>
		<dc:creator>kabbage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 04:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3650</guid>
		<description>Roxie&#039;s markings remind me of the semi-controversial color called harlequin merle in Aussies.  See http://www.ashgi.org/color/harlequin_aussies.htm for more pictures and a discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roxie&#8217;s markings remind me of the semi-controversial color called harlequin merle in Aussies.  See <a href="http://www.ashgi.org/color/harlequin_aussies.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ashgi.org/color/harlequin_aussies.htm</a> for more pictures and a discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Diggs</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3649</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Diggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3649</guid>
		<description>English shepherds look a lot like border collies if you don&#039;t worry too much about the white on most borders.  Or am I wrong?   I didn&#039;t realize that english shepherds come in more than one color.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>English shepherds look a lot like border collies if you don&#8217;t worry too much about the white on most borders.  Or am I wrong?   I didn&#8217;t realize that english shepherds come in more than one color.</p>
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		<title>By: SmartDogs</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3648</link>
		<dc:creator>SmartDogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3648</guid>
		<description>Whatever she really is... she looks a lot like an Irish patterned sable English shepherd (like mine). So much so that our rescue group would gladly take her in and... if she passed a working evaluation our registry would accept her offspring when bred with a registered English Shepherd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever she really is&#8230; she looks a lot like an Irish patterned sable English shepherd (like mine). So much so that our rescue group would gladly take her in and&#8230; if she passed a working evaluation our registry would accept her offspring when bred with a registered English Shepherd.</p>
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		<title>By: Joanna Kimball</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3647</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanna Kimball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3647</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re sort of in the right world but not exactly.

Merle does cause issues because of its physical effects (in other words, they are not inherited or inheritable, but wholly the result of the physical action of the color genes) but there is not a perfect explanation for why. Merle is not a well-studied gene (yet) and we&#039;ll know more in the next ten years.

You should never assume that a dog with lots of color on its head is &quot;safe&quot; or a white-headed dog is not. If that were the case, half the Old English Sheepdogs in the world would be deaf! Same thing with double merles; MANY have color on the head and around the eyes and ears and are affected; many merles and piebalds have little or no color and are fine. Looking at pigment around ears or eyes is something we breeders do and have desperate hopes (or despairs) about, when we&#039;re worried about a puppy, but it&#039;s extremely unreliable. BAER testing is a must.

Ditto with microophthalmia, which is the eye development issue you&#039;re talking about. Some (thankfully very few) double merles are affected by it or by coloboma or some of the other eye issues, most are not, but it&#039;s not linked to more or less white around the eyes. 

Oh, and Mara is definitely a tri (atat), NOT a sable (ayat or ayay). Both her parents were atat, which means she must be the same.
.-= Joanna Kimball&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/?p=3902&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;First bath&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re sort of in the right world but not exactly.</p>
<p>Merle does cause issues because of its physical effects (in other words, they are not inherited or inheritable, but wholly the result of the physical action of the color genes) but there is not a perfect explanation for why. Merle is not a well-studied gene (yet) and we&#8217;ll know more in the next ten years.</p>
<p>You should never assume that a dog with lots of color on its head is &#8220;safe&#8221; or a white-headed dog is not. If that were the case, half the Old English Sheepdogs in the world would be deaf! Same thing with double merles; MANY have color on the head and around the eyes and ears and are affected; many merles and piebalds have little or no color and are fine. Looking at pigment around ears or eyes is something we breeders do and have desperate hopes (or despairs) about, when we&#8217;re worried about a puppy, but it&#8217;s extremely unreliable. BAER testing is a must.</p>
<p>Ditto with microophthalmia, which is the eye development issue you&#8217;re talking about. Some (thankfully very few) double merles are affected by it or by coloboma or some of the other eye issues, most are not, but it&#8217;s not linked to more or less white around the eyes. </p>
<p>Oh, and Mara is definitely a tri (atat), NOT a sable (ayat or ayay). Both her parents were atat, which means she must be the same.<br />
.-= Joanna Kimball&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/?p=3902" rel="nofollow">First bath</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3646</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3646</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s why I think the sable designation is necessary:
&lt;blockquote&gt;kk ayat - shaded sable coat colour (also carries tanpoint) 
kk ayay - clear sable coat colour 
kk atat - tanpointed coat colour 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think Mara is most certainly ayat, not atat.  We don&#039;t call atat sable at all in Border Collies, it&#039;s called tricolor or tanpoint.  To my knowledge the at allele does not create any banding or striping on the cheeks or anywhere else on the body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s why I think the sable designation is necessary:</p>
<blockquote><p>kk ayat &#8211; shaded sable coat colour (also carries tanpoint)<br />
kk ayay &#8211; clear sable coat colour<br />
kk atat &#8211; tanpointed coat colour
</p></blockquote>
<p>I think Mara is most certainly ayat, not atat.  We don&#8217;t call atat sable at all in Border Collies, it&#8217;s called tricolor or tanpoint.  To my knowledge the at allele does not create any banding or striping on the cheeks or anywhere else on the body.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html#comment-3645</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/?p=427#comment-3645</guid>
		<description>Oh, sorry for the confusion. I didn&#039;t mean any blending between the eeRed (looks golden blonde)... I was just saying, what if the different ends of the Liver color, one that looks reddish and the other which looks brownish, are actually different on the chemical level.  Perhaps different enough to justify calling them different colors.

This has nothing to do with eeRed that actually hides underlying genetics because it obscures the coloring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, sorry for the confusion. I didn&#8217;t mean any blending between the eeRed (looks golden blonde)&#8230; I was just saying, what if the different ends of the Liver color, one that looks reddish and the other which looks brownish, are actually different on the chemical level.  Perhaps different enough to justify calling them different colors.</p>
<p>This has nothing to do with eeRed that actually hides underlying genetics because it obscures the coloring.</p>
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